Curse

Legendary Shiz · Aug 27, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

This thread should be closed.

Where are the search nazi's at?

skreet preacha · Aug 27, 2006, 02:06 AM // 02:06

ah, my last post didnt get posted for some reason, lol, think i hit the BACK button before posting. anyway, it basically said thanks to savio for the breakdown, it doesnt make sense then though how i'm gettin 20-30 extra dmg every 4 hits or so (with sundering and critical hits)...

as for searching Shiz, unless i'm just blind, i dont see a way to limit searches anymore. as i stated already in this thread, you type in sundering or vamp in the search box, and ur just gonna get hundreds of listings for Sell and PC section.

ubermancer · Aug 27, 2006, 05:59 AM // 05:59

I didnt include the math because I have done it in this very sub-forum many times before.

Yes, Sundering is based only off of base weapon damage, NOT attack skills' bonus damage.

These tests were assuming 60 AL target, 16 Hammer, and 9 Strength. (what were your numbers at? 78 damage on a crit with a hammer, how?)

A crit with a clean 15% customized Hammer is 87. A crit with 20% Sundering activating does 107. A crit with Sundering activating while underneath the effects of Judge's Insight does 132. This means that Sundering activating underneath Judge's Insight on Fierce Blow can deal 174 damage. Without JI, it would still deal 149 damage.

Vampiric would, given an infinite number of hits, would deal more raw damage, yes. But if this game was about DPS then Cleave would be a favored elite over Eviscerate. Consider a standard Devastating Hammer + Crushing Blow + Fierce Blow chain:

With a Vampiric weapon you will always deal 15 extra damage. With a Sundering weapon, you have 3 seperate chances to deal ~20 extra damage. Given that you have an 80% chance for Sundering not to proc each hit, thats roughly a 50% chance that Sundering WILL proc, and deal more damage. And assuming you get one proc, there is still a decent chance you will get another.

Sundering allows you to put more pressure on your target when you need it most (as its in those three hits a Warrior does his job, not all the rest).

Its true that you can not rely on Sundering is not something you can rely on, but its potential is greater then that of Vampiric, whos damage in a spike is insignificant.

Also, Sundering has no downside, while Vampiric gives you health degeneration (health steal too, sure, but you dont always hit).

Don Zardeone · Aug 27, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

This thread should be closed.

Where are the search nazi's at?

Sorry, got held up by them gestapo noobs. Who the hell do they think they are, fuhrers? Geez...

Anyways, here goes:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3066860

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3021321

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3068652

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3060603

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=118344

Heil!

Ajantis · Aug 27, 2006, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Nice numbers Savio, just one question, the hornbow difference seems to be very small, did you include the inherent penetration bonus from hornbows?

Dante the Warlord · Aug 27, 2006, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Sundering is not totally inferior to Vampiric! Look at vampiric, IF you hit them Then you will gain health. What if they use a blocking stance?! then you won't hit them, you will have a bonus degeneration, and they will really be putting the hurt on you. Sundering is more of a universal thing, if they block, sundering will just not happen...no bonus damage, but no negetive side effects. Vampiric are more for risk takers. I like sundering personally, i don't take a lot of risks

Skuld · Aug 27, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

1 degeneration is nothing. Sundering doesn't do anything if it can't hit either..

Yanman.be · Aug 27, 2006, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

Sundering is not totally inferior to Vampiric! Look at vampiric, IF you hit them Then you will gain health. What if they use a blocking stance?! then you won't hit them, you will have a bonus degeneration, and they will really be putting the hurt on you. Sundering is more of a universal thing, if they block, sundering will just not happen...no bonus damage, but no negetive side effects. Vampiric are more for risk takers. I like sundering personally, i don't take a lot of risks

The question here is what does more damage. Not what has more risks.

SparhawkJC · Aug 27, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Is losing 2 hp per second really that much of a risk compared to paying 10 times more money to deal less damage?

ubermancer · Aug 27, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

Is losing 2 hp per second really that much of a risk compared to paying 10 times more money to deal less damage?

Money? Who the hell cares about money? Its so damn easy to come by in Guild Wars its almost laughable, if it werent for the fact that the game mechanics support it.

And we have to seriously define the theatre in which we are talking about...

Dante the Warlord · Aug 27, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

1 degeneration is nothing. Sundering doesn't do anything if it can't hit either..

1 health degeneration is a HUGE deal! if you are attacking and your attacks are blocked taht could last for 30 seconds, that means -30 health right off the starting bat and also the actual damage you take which could be hundreds depending on e the level, efectivenes, and number of enemies....but more on topic:

well....in terms of specifically damage go vampiric...just know that its a big risk because of the health degeneration. In terms of safeness and solid foundation, but not as much damage go sundering. Personally, i think that someones poitning out of how PvE is more for sundering and PvP is more for vampiric. (that i think is mainly what you are looking for)

JR · Aug 27, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

1 health degeneration is a HUGE deal! if you are attacking and your attacks are blocked taht could last for 30 seconds, that means -30 health right off the starting bat and also the actual damage you take which could be hundreds depending on e the level, efectivenes, and number of enemies....but more on topic:

well....in terms of specifically damage go vampiric...just know that its a big risk because of the health degeneration. In terms of safeness and solid foundation, but not as much damage go sundering. Personally, i think that someones poitning out of how PvE is more for sundering and PvP is more for vampiric. (that i think is mainly what you are looking for)

Hi there.

See those four weapon slots? Stop being lazy and use them. Alternatively; get a monk who can deal with you having one pip of degen.

fallot · Aug 27, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

In addition to JR's advice, you may also attempt to hit something that isn't blocking your attacks.

Savio · Aug 27, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

These tests were assuming 60 AL target, 16 Hammer, and 9 Strength. (what were your numbers at? 78 damage on a crit with a hammer, how?)

I was listing critical hits sans attack skills, which was why Strength AP was irrelevant. With an attack skill and 9 Strength it would do 87 damage plus the attack skill damage if any.

Quote:

Vampiric would, given an infinite number of hits, would deal more raw damage, yes.

Which is what the OP asked about as stated in the title, and which I answered. But we might as well discuss which one is more useful since nobody really talked about it after the sundering buff.

Quote:

But if this game was about DPS then Cleave would be a favored elite over Eviscerate.

The difference between Cleave and Eviscerate is the difference between one more spammable weaker skill and a skill that is part of a spike chain. The difference between vampiric and sundering is either always having a small amount (3 or 5) of extra damage or occasionally having an uncontrollable boost to damage (7-14, crit 20 for hammers). Just because DPS isn't the highest priority in the game doesn't mean we throw it out entirely. Were the extra damage from sundering to occur enough to be of significance, it actually would be a viable alternative. But does sundering have enough of an effect?

Quote:

With a Vampiric weapon you will always deal 15 extra damage. With a Sundering weapon, you have 3 seperate chances to deal ~20 extra damage.

The problem with this statement is that you're assuming you're hitting for a critical every time sundering activates, which would give you 20 damage. If you're not getting a crit then the greatest bonus you get from sundering is 14 damage, which is less than what vampiric would give you in three hits. So sundering would only be greater than vampiric if it coincided with a crit, or if sundering triggers more than once during those three hits. The chances of either having at least one single sundering+crit combo or having sundering activate more than once is about 22%, which isn't great considering that during that 22% you only get 1-10 extra points of damage over vampiric.

But we aren't concerned with minor damage, are we? We want to see how often we'll get a good damage bonus from sundering. The chances of getting two critical+sundering combos to get 40 extra damage in three hits is 0.6%, a far cry from the 10% chance you'd get if you assumed that you always got criticals. I'd rather take my 15 lifesteal always rather than hope that my /roll 100 works. (We could assume that the target is being stupid and running away from you, resulting in an automatic crit the first hit, now giving you a 2.3% chance to get two critical+sundering combos. But somehow /roll 50 isn't much more appealing to me, especially as we're assuming stupidity on the enemy's part.)

@Ajantis: Actually, I forgot to include inherent AP. I just tacked on hornbows for the slower speed and didn't think about it much. Silly me. The actual number should be 1.07 health/sec difference for hornbows rather than 1.15.

skreet preacha · Aug 28, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

aight, yall made a believer outta me. ;-) so i switched to vamp, and i havent paid attention to the numbers, but over the long run, i do notice that i take out the Warrior Troll Boss, Krogg Shmush, on my troll runs, faster than i did with a sundering haft. about a good 15 seconds faster too.

I R Chewy · Aug 29, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

What if they use a blocking stance?!

there's something called wild blow. maybe you should use it sometime.

Don Zardeone · Aug 30, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Guys, we've been through this before.
The only time we'd need to do this again is when ANet buffs, nerfs, adds or remvoes vamp, sundering or other things related to them.

I already made the search nazi post!

Come on!!

skreet preacha · Aug 30, 2006, 03:50 PM // 15:50

so hook us up on how to search Don

Dante the Warlord · Aug 31, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by I R Chewy

there's something called wild blow. maybe you should use it sometime.

Personally i hate wild blow...its not that great...and its a pretty high adrenaline cost...all it does shove them down...i replcaed it with quivering blade because not everyone has a blocking stance, just i think vampiric is better for PvE only, sometimes i like to just sit back and relax while killing thye enemy, BUT i heard about zealous, does this really have no health degeneration...i know it has energy gain.

Thorin Monk · Aug 31, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

wild blow = 5 energy....and it removes any stance....not just blocking....and wild blow is not a knock down..............it removes any stance, warrior, mesmer, ranger, or assassin, think of some stances commonly used in farming builds, wouldn't it be nice if you could remove them